We get letters (It’s a long one)

September 22, 2008 in Craigslist, Prostitution/Human Trafficking by Trench Reynolds | 62 comments

I got some interesting e-mails and comments over the weekend about my stance that craigslist should eliminate it’s erotic services section. Let’s start with the long boring one from a male craigslist ‘escort’.

Since your blog makes it perfectly clear you can do a better job of discerning what are “legal” or “illegal” services offered in the erotic services section of craigslist, I challenge you to the following test: I will provide you with the legal statue of the state in which I work, the content of my ad, and a synopsis of what is discussed with a client before

services are delivered. Your task will be post that same information & then an explanation of how it qualifies under the state statute as illegal activity WITHOUT relying on conjecture and presumptions. Are you up to the challenge? We’ll see….

1. STATE LAW: Prostitution is performing for hire, or offering or agreeing to perform for hire where there is an exchange of value, any of the following acts: Sexual intercourse; sodomy; or manual or other bodily contact stimulation of the genitals of any person with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desires of the offender or another.

2. CRAIGSLIST AD: Interactive, Sensual, Satisfying, Massage PLUS – m4m Much-deserved, much-needed, and completely satisfying sensual massage. Former USArmy – 5’8″ husky & masculine — tattooed/hairy arms & legs — Just a real guy for your very real pleasure. Interaction Welcome.

Special Attention given to Mature Men, but all ages (18+) welcome. Older? – Fully Appreciated & Respected Bearish, Hairy or Chubby? – All body types accepted Straight/Curious? – Your Limits Completely Respected Married? – DDF, Safe, Clean & Absolutely Discreet

###-###-#### – EMAIL, TXTMSG or CALL for APPT

Available MOST WEEKDAYS after 5PM….or ANYTIME Saturdays & Sundays

INCALL: $60.00/hr; Home or Hotel Outcall: $80.00

3. UPON CLIENT ARRIVAL: There is never any discussion of sex or sexual acts of any kind for payment.

Client is asked whether he agrees to the “Terms of Service” presented in large-type which read, “This is not an offer of prostitution and no fees will ever be solicited or accepted for illegal activity. I AGREE that money exchanged in legal adult recreational services if only for time,

companionship, and general/non-therapeutic massage. I AGREE that anything else that may or may not happen is a matter of personal choice and personal preference between two or more consenting adults of legal age and is not expected or included in the services provided for fee. I AGREE that the services provided for fee do not in any way include or relate to performing for hire, or offering or agreesing to perform for hire where there is an exchange of value, any of the following acts: sexual intercourse; sodomy; or manual or other bodily contact stimulation of the genitals of any person with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desires of that person or

another.”

4. SERVICES DELIVERED: As stated in the ad….massage.

5. SESSION ENDED: Clients pays (and hopefully tips).

FROM THE ABOVE INFORMATION ONLY can you explain how anything illegal has been offered or has taken place?? If you can’t, I bet you won’t have the guts to post it on your blog. Have fun!

You’re right. I can’t say with 100% certainty whether or not your services are illegal or not without actually using your services, which I wouldn’t but that’s just my personal preference.

However if I were law enforcement in your community your ad would definitely draw my attention.

Buzzwords like Massage PLUS are a tip off. The fact that you posted the typical escort ‘this is not prostitution..blah blah blah, would lead me to believe that’s exactly what it is.Not to mention when you posted I AGREE that anything else that may or may not happen is a matter of personal choice and personal preference between two or more consenting adults of legal age and is not expected or included in the services provided for fee also leads me to believe you’re offering an illegal service. You know that argument never holds up in court right?

If your massages are so legitimate then why are they posted in the erotic services section? Do you have a professional massage license in your state? Have you ever been arrested for your ‘massages’?

The next I received as a comment on my post about Jon who was harrassed by the ‘hobbyists’ of the erotic services section for flagging ads…

So you’ve got nothing better to do than this, huh? I have no problem with you having your own religious morals. Just don’t try and force them down my throat!

If you go back and read that post you’ll notice that religion is never mentioned anywhere. It’s got nothing to do with religious morals but everything to do with prostitution being illegal. I’ll stop when one of two things happens, when prostitution is made legal in the other 49 states, or when craigslist eliminates the erotic services section.

This next one is from a repeat customer who I’ve ignored up until now. I figured since I was addressing hobbyists and escorts I might as well address a comment from the cult of craig. I received it as a comment on my post about the journalist who took out craigslist escorts on actual dates.

So you are a judge and jury and human expert?

What is the objective of this website?

You need to provide a page telling your tale,

or you ware just a whiney person, who looks

a the world and complians,,,but has NO SOLUTION,,,

what is your purpaose?

First I’d recommend that you switch to the Firefox browser. It comes with a spell checker. Secondly I thought the objective of this site was pretty obvious. It says so in the tagline, “The craigslist crime blotter“. Do you know what a crime blotter is? A lot of local newspapers in the US have a section that’s called the police blotter which mentions calls that the police have had. That’s sort of what I do except all the crimes here deal with craigslist or other classified sites. And I have three basic solutions that I’ve mentioned repeatedly that would go a long way to reducing crime on craigslist. 1. Make users have a public profile on craigslist. 2. Eliminate the erotic services section. 3. Don’t do business on craigslist.

Hell, craigslist should be paying me a consulting fee.

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  • http://www.red-alerts.com Rob Taylor

    But that's because depending on the state the prosecution may not want to prosecute cases that aren't open and shut. So cops rely on the hookers to call them back and money to exchange hands.But if the state had unlimited resources including accounts to pay for "expert" witness testimony don't you think "sensual massages" would be quite easy to prosecute?

  • http://www.red-alerts.com Rob Taylor

    But that's because depending on the state the prosecution may not want to prosecute cases that aren't open and shut. So cops rely on the hookers to call them back and money to exchange hands.

    But if the state had unlimited resources including accounts to pay for "expert" witness testimony don't you think "sensual massages" would be quite easy to prosecute?

  • Ronnie

    "But if the state had unlimited resources including accounts to pay for “expert” witness testimony don’t you think “sensual massages” would be quite easy to prosecute?"Now you're just exhibiting a case of MSU (making sh*t up). Any case is "open and shut" if they really have the evidence. The problem they run into is when they try to pretend something is evidence, but really have none.

  • Ronnie

    "But if the state had unlimited resources including accounts to pay for “expert” witness testimony don’t you think “sensual massages” would be quite easy to prosecute?"

    Now you're just exhibiting a case of MSU (making sh*t up). Any case is "open and shut" if they really have the evidence. The problem they run into is when they try to pretend something is evidence, but really have none.

  • http://www.red-alerts.com Rob Taylor

    OK you win, there's no way any of us can be sure sensual massages offered in the erotic services section of CL involves sex. It's too clever a scheme! By the gods it's opened up a whole array of new horizons to me. I'm going to put up an ad saying I'll "rub out" someone for $10,000 using my "heater" and the cops will NEVER be able to be sure that I'm offering to kill someone. It's genius!

  • http://www.red-alerts.com Rob Taylor

    OK you win, there's no way any of us can be sure sensual massages offered in the erotic services section of CL involves sex. It's too clever a scheme! By the gods it's opened up a whole array of new horizons to me. I'm going to put up an ad saying I'll "rub out" someone for $10,000 using my "heater" and the cops will NEVER be able to be sure that I'm offering to kill someone. It's genius!

  • Ronnie

    You say, "there’s no way any of us can be sure sensual massages offered in the erotic services section of CL involves sex." Actually you can. When the police do their job properly and get the necessary evidence to substantiate that prostitution has taken place (as you say, "money to exchange hands" ) then they have a good bust. It is important to everyone's civil liberties (the innocent and the guilty alike) that the system places that burden of proof on law enforcement and prosecutors. We would not be a free society if that were not the case. If that were not the case, then Yes, you could simply arrest and convict someone for placing a sensual massage ad on the internet even if no crime was ever committed and not bother with proving the case of prostitution. You can probably name some countries that operate in that way. We don't want to be one of those countries where you can be arrested on a suspicion and detained in prison until you can prove your innocence.Are the sensual/erotic massage ads on CL advertising prostitution? PROBABLYWhat establishes the necessary proof? THE LAW (not public opinon or Trench's opinion)What does the law require? IN THE CASE ABOVE:1. Actually performing sexual intercourse, sodomy, or genital stimulation for money; OR2. Offering to perform sexual intercourse, sodomy, or genital stimulation for money; OR3. Agreeing to perform sexual intercourse, sodomy, or gential stimulation for money.I don't know of any court that would look favorably on a police officer actually engaging in sexual intercourse with a prostitute or getting a handjob from a prostitute to have the necessary evidence to convict. Instead they have to rely on getting an offer to do one of the above acts for payment or an agreement from the suspect to do one of the above acts for payment. It is a difficult challenge they face to build a good case, and it blackens the reputation of all police when the few unscrupulous ones fabricate evidence or lie under oath about what took place. Still the high standards of evidence are necessary to protect our civil liberties from tyranny.If their strategy of "stings" is effective, then there will soon be noone left posting their erotic services ads. Unfortunately, it is not an effective strategy, and most of the mature and intelligent escorts know how to steer clear of legal entanglements. Despite the expense of the sting operatons, however, it is worthwhile for the rare instances when it uncovers human trafficking or exploitation of minors. For those reasons alone they should continue, and it appears the presence of craigslist is making it possible for law enforcement to more frequently discover those crimes.

  • Ronnie

    You say, "there’s no way any of us can be sure sensual massages offered in the erotic services section of CL involves sex." Actually you can. When the police do their job properly and get the necessary evidence to substantiate that prostitution has taken place (as you say, "money to exchange hands" ) then they have a good bust. It is important to everyone's civil liberties (the innocent and the guilty alike) that the system places that burden of proof on law enforcement and prosecutors. We would not be a free society if that were not the case. If that were not the case, then Yes, you could simply arrest and convict someone for placing a sensual massage ad on the internet even if no crime was ever committed and not bother with proving the case of prostitution. You can probably name some countries that operate in that way. We don't want to be one of those countries where you can be arrested on a suspicion and detained in prison until you can prove your innocence.

    Are the sensual/erotic massage ads on CL advertising prostitution? PROBABLY

    What establishes the necessary proof? THE LAW (not public opinon or Trench's opinion)

    What does the law require? IN THE CASE ABOVE:

    1. Actually performing sexual intercourse, sodomy, or genital stimulation for money; OR

    2. Offering to perform sexual intercourse, sodomy, or genital stimulation for money; OR

    3. Agreeing to perform sexual intercourse, sodomy, or gential stimulation for money.

    I don't know of any court that would look favorably on a police officer actually engaging in sexual intercourse with a prostitute or getting a handjob from a prostitute to have the necessary evidence to convict. Instead they have to rely on getting an offer to do one of the above acts for payment or an agreement from the suspect to do one of the above acts for payment. It is a difficult challenge they face to build a good case, and it blackens the reputation of all police when the few unscrupulous ones fabricate evidence or lie under oath about what took place. Still the high standards of evidence are necessary to protect our civil liberties from tyranny.

    If their strategy of "stings" is effective, then there will soon be noone left posting their erotic services ads. Unfortunately, it is not an effective strategy, and most of the mature and intelligent escorts know how to steer clear of legal entanglements. Despite the expense of the sting operatons, however, it is worthwhile for the rare instances when it uncovers human trafficking or exploitation of minors. For those reasons alone they should continue, and it appears the presence of craigslist is making it possible for law enforcement to more frequently discover those crimes.

  • Vega

    Obviously you aren't that well read on sting operations, but the arrest usually happens as soon as the hooker makes a grab for the cop's pecker. Call it the 'burden of proof'. I could go for a colonic right now.

  • Vega

    Obviously you aren't that well read on sting operations, but the arrest usually happens as soon as the hooker makes a grab for the cop's pecker. Call it the 'burden of proof'. I could go for a colonic right now.

  • Ronnie

    "Obviously you aren’t that well read on sting operations, but the arrest usually happens as soon as the hooker makes a grab for the cop’s pecker."Interesting. I have done numerous internet searches for information on how sting operations work & never found any information like that. I figured I would have to go to court as an observer to hear the actual testimony or obtain court transcripts. However, if there are any internet links you can point us to that will substantiate your claim it would be most helpful in proving whether the rumors are true or not. If you just invented the information, then of course don't bother.I would note however that a person I know who was not involved in prostitution, but cruising a local park for a quickie did get arrested for attempting sexual contact in a public place. However, he never said anything to the officer agreeing to any such act and the officer fabricated a tale that he had reached for the officer's genitals. The judge saw that the officer's tale was bull-sh*t and dismissed the case.

  • Ronnie

    "Obviously you aren’t that well read on sting operations, but the arrest usually happens as soon as the hooker makes a grab for the cop’s pecker."

    Interesting. I have done numerous internet searches for information on how sting operations work & never found any information like that. I figured I would have to go to court as an observer to hear the actual testimony or obtain court transcripts. However, if there are any internet links you can point us to that will substantiate your claim it would be most helpful in proving whether the rumors are true or not. If you just invented the information, then of course don't bother.

    I would note however that a person I know who was not involved in prostitution, but cruising a local park for a quickie did get arrested for attempting sexual contact in a public place. However, he never said anything to the officer agreeing to any such act and the officer fabricated a tale that he had reached for the officer's genitals. The judge saw that the officer's tale was bull-sh*t and dismissed the case.

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